MODERATOR: Well, supposing we start out with our Doctor, and perhaps she can tell us what the state of knowledge is, scientifically speaking. Is the homosexual classified as a medical case, as a psychological case?—let's have some general statement of what your interpretation would be of what produces that particular type of approach to life.

DR. BAKER: Well, this is a quite controversial subject, even in the medical profession. There are many, many outstanding theories and I think there are many individual variations in the interpretation of those basic theories. For instance, there are those physicians who feel that this is definitely a neurotic problem. There are others who feel that it is a glandular problem. Many feel it is hereditary. Others feel that it may be caused by other factors. Now, for myself, I feel from the many years of work and intense, almost specialization, in understanding homosexuals,-I feel that a homosexual is, first of all, a human being. Now that may seem to be a rather elementary statement, but I very much believe in the individual adjustment problem, and I think that homosexuality may have many different kinds of causes, and each individual case needs to be studied and interpreted on its own merits. And I do not look upon homosexuality as a neurotic problem, but more a basic personality pattern reaction. Just as some people prefer blondes and others prefer brunettes, I think that the fact that a given person may prefer the love of the same sex is their personal business. Now, that doesn't mean that homosexuals may not become neurotic,-I think that they often do, because society is so hostile to them and their own families do not understand them, so they are subject to a great many pressures and a great deal of unhappiness. I know that other psychiatrists would not agree with me, but this is my own personal interpretation.

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MODERATOR: Would you say that the majority of people in the medical profession, or in your own profession, do disagree with you? Would you say that your attitude, in other words, is a minority attitude where the medical profession is concerned?

DR. BAKER: I suspect that it is pretty much a minority. I know several psychiatrists who have somewhat similar views, but I couldn't speak for the group, because psychiatrists are just about as individualistic as any group I know: I do believe, though, that the actual viewpoint is pretty generally hostile and that the homosexual is looked upon as a poor risk by psychiatrists. MODERATOR: Can one be hostile about science? Is there any acceptable, medical evidence in your view for the fact that this is at least partially, a physical predisposition, rather than a psychological one?

DR. BAKER: Well, there has been a great deal of work done on this, but I don't believe there has ever been any conclusive finding. I know that the attempts that I have read will describe all varieties and you wind up by seemattackine REVIEW

ing just different kinds of human beings. That is, there will be some research which tends to show that homosexuals are tall and skinny. And other researchers will show that they are more short and fat, with feminine curves. There are others that show them to be muscular. MODERATOR: Is this the glandular theory?

DR. BAKER: Well, I don't know that this is glandular, but you asked for a physical evaluation and there have been many studies made. For a long time there has been research, and as far as I can read they are dealing with just a broad, cross-section of the population and I don't think they are actually measuring the factors which do contribute to homosexuality. MODERATOR: And what do you think some of those factors are? DR. BAKER: Well, I believe that those lie deep in the individual's nature. My own views are that it is a very deep, personal, psychological problem, -there are many factors in early childhood which affect a person. The basic thing I am aware of is that all human beings have both maleness and femaleness in them. Now, in America, which is the only place I know, we have too much the attitude that a person is either male or female. As I find it, all the people I work with are mixed,—male and female. When there are certain experiences in early childhood it tends to throw a person more toward the female side, and subsequent patterns develop from that.

MRS. GAILEY: Well, certainly Dr. Freud and William James would go along with you on that. Freud, I think, said that all men are basically bisexual, and William James even said that most men are potential homosexuals. MODERATOR: Well, the Freudian position, as I understand it is that there are a series of sexual attitudes towards life which every individual goes through in some form or another, the self-love, the homosexual, and the heterosexual. You can correct me, Dr. Baker, if I am wrong...

DR. BAKER: No, that is one of the theories!

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MODERA TOR: the Freudian position was that the individual who remains within the homosexual bracket has failed to take another step forward in what would be considered a normal growth in their relationship with life. That is as I understand it, the Freudian position. Mr. Call, you seem to have something to say.

MR. CALL: I was going to add that I think that this whole business of homosexualism is just one of the things that exists in nature. It always has been with us, as far as we know, and always will be as far as we expect. It seems that no laws nor attitudes of any culture that we have looked into in the past have ever been able to stamp it out, or even essentially curb it. The laws and enforcements of laws against homosexuality merely chases it out of sight. Of course, we do also believe right along here that the sexuality of all people is something that should be a private matter and not, of course, a public thing.